I’ve culled out some of the more popular responses to Beta Response 2: The Human Feat and here’s a quick poll. You can vote for multiple options, so lemme know all the ones that look like a good idea to you.
What makes Humans nifty?
- Flexible Thinking: +2 bonus on stunt checks. (Humans adapt rapidly and creatively.) (66%, 65 Votes)
- Improved Initiative: +4 bonus on Initiative checks. (Humans are quick to react to unusual situations.) (14%, 14 Votes)
- Iron Will: +2 to Will saves. (Humans are mentally tough.) (10%, 10 Votes)
- Diplomat: +2 to Diplomacy and Sense Motive. (I like it the way it is!) (10%, 10 Votes)
Total Voters: 84
Loading ...A few of my quick thoughts on this discussion:
I’m surprised by how popular the idea of Improved Initiative is. I’ve always considered it a fairly weak feat and this was an opinion shared by most of the designers I knew back in the day. Poking around, I can see that it seems to have become popular in the CharOp community 4-5 years ago. Which I suppose makes sense given the set of artificial suppositions the CharOp community generally works in. I’d be interested in hearing a greater elaboration on why people think it’s a must-have feat.
I considered the various “+2 to save X” feats when I was first designing the human. Since any choice seemed fairly arbitrary, I backed away from it. But Iron Will makes sense to me.
The +2 bonus to stunt checks sounds really nifty. I’m hesitant to tie it to an L&L-specific system like that (because I know that part of the appeal of L&L for many people is their ability to parcel out portions of it for utility in their 3E campaign), but it’s definitely got some nice flair to it.
Just a few thoughts:
1. Flexible Thinking seems the best fit for a human. Humans are traditionally the ‘middle road’ race – designed to be good in a jack of all trades sense, leaving the higher end racial benefits to be found elsewhere. A ‘quick on your feet’ bonus seems apt and ties into the ‘quick of mind’ idea of Iron Will without the need for a bonus there.
2. Improved initiative. A +4 seems like a large bonus – and it’s something that’s usually seen on more dexterous focused races. Even the reasoning could be applied elsewhere for other benefits (such as tactical movement bonus before initiative).
3. Iron Will. The benefit really depends on the array of other races present in the campaign setting used (and it’s a bonus that’s compared to other races; humans are superior compared to x,y,z – and implies are lower stat set for other races even if it’s not mechanically present e.g., racial fluff and doesn’t exactly fit the ‘humans are the middle standard’ racial set usually found in fantasy settings).
“I’d be interested in hearing a greater elaboration on why people think it’s a must-have feat.”
It’s powerful (although I don’t think it’s a good thematic bonus feat for humans) because high-op D&D is rocket tag and when you’re playing rocket tag, getting to fire your rocket first is very important.
Honestly for humans I don’t like any of those. maybe just give them +3 (Skill Focus) to the extra class skill they are already picking.
My own analysis of Improved Initiative is that you effectively take your 1-4 result on initiative (going last) and change it to a 21-24 result (going first). That’s essentially +1 full round action every five fights (a touch less for those with high dex, who weren’t last anyway).
+1 full round action, if your fights last about 4.5 rounds, is +25% effectiveness when it works, or +5% effectiveness on average. That’s the same as getting +1 to every active ability forever that stacks with everything, but using more spells and arrows.
+1 to everything forever is a good feat, not great. But going dead last is also somewhat demoralising for players, so it’s still worth taking. If your fights tend to last much longer, it’s not so good. If your fights are shorter, it’s better.
“[…] I’m hesitant to tie it to an L&L-specific system like that (because I know that part of the appeal of L&L for many people is their ability to parcel out portions of it for utility in their 3E campaign) […]”
I don’t think you really need to worry about that because those people probably wouldn’t have any problems with just taking a bonus feat instead.
The pros for Improved Initiative are as follows:
1) A +4 untyped bonus is pretty good for a feat. Most feats in the PHB are rather weak &/or conservative, in comparison, so it stands out in the crowd.
2) D&D is a combat-oriented game, in which battles usually only last a few rounds on average. Therefore, acting first often means acting more often, & thus having a significant advantage over opponents.
3) This feat is beneficial in 100% of all encounters, which cannot be said for just about any other feat/trait. It benefits all characters, regardless of class choice, unlike most other options, which are situational.
4) Initiative is one of those derived stats that is difficult to boost any other way. The only other way to do so is to increase one’s Dexterity score/modifier, which not all characters can afford to do. Constitution is more vital for most classes, Strength is needed by Barbarians/Fighters/Monks/Paladins, & the mental scores demand the attention of all caster classes. As important as Dexterity is, it is just one among six ability scores, & Charisma can’t be a dump stat for everybody. Also, you’d have to pump up your Dexterity score by 8 points to get an initiative boost equal to Improved Initiative, which isn’t feasible for most builds.
5) I’m sure that there are other reasons which escape me at the moment, but I’m not a CharOp guy by any stretch, so I’ll leave that to more knowledgeable folk.
I think that the reason improved initiative is so well thought of is that high level (optimized) spell casters can often win the fight before the other side can act. Imagone, for example, a 3.0 red wizard that uses a fighter of death spell (with all of the ways to boost the effect DC). Many opponents can only save on a “20”.
Now, imagine the opposition scales up in response. 🙂
Suddenly, moving first is a massive advantage. It can also make an incredible difference in defense: that dinosaur is a lot less scary if you can reliably put up a mirror image spell before it chews you up. Improved invisibility can often end a fight as can flying up into the air.
Non-spellcasters are also advantaged in being able to scatter or engage before the enemy can act.
So the advantages are tactical (and really show up at high levels). I have gamed with serious CharOp types (which seems to be a minority experience) and, at high levels, I have often seen an encounter decided before the other side even gets to act. It’s actually one of my objections to d20, in general, and something on my “look at closely” with L&L checklist to see if they avoid.
You don’t need to be a charop gamer or power gamer to be interested in optimization. Those types are not the norm, but even just from an optimization standpoint, a human with free imp initiative would certainly be the class of choice, if that was the only way to get the feat. If you could select it as a feat of your own choice, it wouldn’t be an issue at all.
It’s considered valuable at high levels for the reasons mentioned, and low levels for similar reasons. Going first helps end fights quicker which means less opportunities to die.
The value goes up the more people who have it. Consider a party of humans with imp initiative vs. a party of non-humans. Now you have a chance for the whole party to act first, making a decisive blow in any encounter.
The +2 to stunts ability is my favorite of the ones I suggested, because it seems to best preserve the “adaptable” human style. One issue I could see cropping up is human players trying to make every skill check into a stunt check. This could be fixed by adding a sentence or two to the stunts section clearly defining what is and what is not a stunt (the “Not Everything is a Stunt” blurb only gives two examples of things that aren’t stunts, not a solid general rule).
Improved Initiative was definitely my least favorite of my suggestions, though I wouldn’t be upset if it was finally chosen. Its main selling points are simplicity to use and the fact that it already exists as a feat. Other posters have thoroughly covered the reasons for its utility, so I’ll skip that.
I’m just not a big fan of the other two suggestions on the poll as neither really fit the human flavor, in my opinion.
I like the +2 to stunts because it encourages people to use the mechanic that you feel sets your game apart and makes it more fun. I agree with Lee that it’s important to have clear rules that prevent someone from abusing the mechanic and slowing down all dangerous encounters to crawl by arguing that every move/check he makes is some kind of stunt.
I’m coming to the conversation a bit late, but I think that one of the compelling advantages of Improved Initiative (which may or may not be of interest to CharOp guys) is that winning initiative is a huge benefit when it comes to picking the exact ground on which the battle will be fought, striking flat-footed opponents (awesome for everyone; fight-ending for rogues), getting a fighter or monk in melee range of a spellcaster, or putting a defensive screen between the enemy and the party’s spellcasters. Opportunity attacks are sufficiently serious problems that getting to take even one action without worrying about them is very important.