In the comments on Sunday, Bobson mentioned Weapons of Legacy. This was almost certainly the worst supplement ever produced by Wizards of the Coast. It wouldn’t even be worth mentioning, except that the core concept (which they mangled so horribly) is actually pretty nifty. In response to Bobson’s post, I went digging around and found an old series of messages I posted to the rec.games.frp.dnd newsgroup regarding this trainwreck. I’ve reorganized and slightly rewritten these thoughts here…
THE REACTION
I’m coming kinda late to Weapons of Legacy, but I’ve got a legendary weapon that I need to give to a low-level PC and it seemed like it might be the perfect fit. So I borrowed a copy from a friend and sat down to read through it and see what I could bash out.
Wow. This is one of the worst supplements I’ve ever seen. Oh, there’s been some third-party D20 stuff that’s worse, but not by much. It reminds me of some of the worst dreck that TSR was cranking out during the darkest days of 2nd Edition.
It got off to kind of a rough start when the authors just kept repeating the same ra-ra, pom-pom cheerleading of themselves. Then the book started repeating the exact same description of what a weapon of legacy was in nineteen different forms: Yes, okay, I get it. Weapons of legacy improve as I gain levels. I read the blurb on the back cover. Can we get to the meat of the matter, please?
Then I got to the part of the system where, in order to unlock the higher level powers of a weapon, you had to perform rituals which would give you feats which… weren’t actually feats? Well, that’s pretty lame. It would have been interesting to have a mechanic where you could either (a) spend gold and XP to unlock the powers or (b) spend a feat to unlock the item’s powers, but to have a system where you get something that we’ll call a feat but which doesn’t actually work according to any of the rules which govern how feats work? Stupid. Pick a different name. Or, better yet, don’t pick any name: Instead of having rituals which give you feats which unlock powers, just have rituals which unlock powers.
Then I got to the part of the system where, in order to unlock these powers, you have to accept penalties to attack bonuses, class abilities, saving throws, and the like. What the hell? The awesome artifact of arcane power from the elder days of the universe is… making me suck? And not only that, but the penalties frequently go after the very stats that the weapon is boosting. So you’ll have a +4 weapon, but it will only effectively be a +2 weapon because it comes with a -2 penalty to attacks… and not only attacks with that weapon itself, but with ALL weapons.
(If you run the numbers, this makes a kind of pseudo-sense for some of the items described in the book: The penalty to the item’s core competency ends up making it about as effective as the item you could buy for the same price. But upon closer inspection, this doesn’t hold up: You’re spending just as much money for an item which is making you suck whenever you’re not using the item.
I can see the temptation that led to this mechanic: “Well, if you’re willing to accept a penalty for using an item, the item should cost less.” But, first of all, it doesn’t fit the purported concept behind weapons of legacy. And, secondly, it’s impossible to balance such a mechanic: Either you have the penalties target the same abilities as what the item is pumping up (which defeats the purpose) or they target other stats, in which case you’re creating a whole sub-system which exists only for the purpose of enabling min-max abuse.)
My patience with the book was finally exhausted, however, when I got to the rules for actually creating legacy items. From their own Example, this is the process: Create a basic magic item. Choose an option from Menu A. Choose an option from Menu B, since the Menu A choice can’t be taken again. Menu B selections take up two slots for every one slot that a Menu A ability would have taken. For your next selection you can select from Menu A again, but instead we’ll select from Menu C. This takes up three slots for every slot that an ability from Menu A would have taken. Now, select the penalties for using the item from tables 4-1 through 4-10…
Are you kidding me? Are you frickin’ kidding me?
THE BIG PICTURE
The basic concept behind legacy items is simple: Instead of replacing their magic items as they increase in wealth and/or power, their existing magic items increase in power with them. This means that Elric never “outgrows” Stormbringer. It also allows you to put ancient and powerful artifacts in the hands of low-level PCs without completely destroying game balance.
The most basic mechanic for accomplishing this goal is simple: As the PCs level up, a legacy item would automatically increase in power with them.
Unfortunately, this doesn’t quite work. There’s a 48,000 gp difference between the cost of a +1 longsword and a +5 longsword. So if you have a mechanic by which a +1 longsword automatically transforms into a +5 longsword — and everything else remains the same — then the PC will have an extra 48,000 gp to spend on other magical equipment (and thus unbalance the game).
When you put the problem that way, the solution becomes pretty obvious: If you want the item to improve, you still need to figure out how to impose the cost of the more powerful item in order to keep things balanced. You can’t do that upfront (because low-level PCs don’t have the cash reserves to buy a +5 longsword — if they did, they would own them already), so that means that you need to find a mechanism of imposing the cost as the item improves.
SOLUTIONS
THE BACKSTAGE SOLUTION: The PC never actually pays any additional cost. Instead, you simply adjust the amount of treasure the party receives to account for the “extra” value of the legacy item. By the time the legacy item becomes a +5 longsword, the party has been “shorted” 48,000 gp of treasure — but that’s okay, because the +5 longsword makes up for it.
There are two potential problems with this approach, one minor and one major.
The minor problem is that it requires the DM to adjust the standard treasure distribution. This isn’t a huge hassle, but it is one more thing that needs to be accounted for.
The major problem, however, arises in groups which assidiously split treasure equally. Unless the party is willing to adjust for the “lost” treasure, the PC with the legacy item will receive an unfair share of the party’s wealth. (They’ll get an equal share of all the actual treasure, but then have an extra 48,000 gp of “virtual treasure” as a result of their legacy +5 longsword.)
And thinking of it as “lost” treasure probably won’t make most players happy, either. It makes the legacy item feel like some kind of penalty.
THE SIMPLE SOLUTION: Legacy items come with pre-packaged abilities. By performing legacy rituals, characters can spend the standard XP and gold cost for enchanting the item with those abilities without the necessary Item Creation feat or any of the other prerequisites.
This is a simple, straight-forward approach. It’s guaranteed to be balanced with the core rules because it’s using the existing item creation system as a basis for its prices.
The only mechanical problem with this approach is that it leaves the PCs with little motivation to take advantage of it. It costs just as much to unlock the powers of a legacy item as it would to enchant the item with a new power from scratch. There are slight advantages to be gained (the XP cost comes from the item’s user instead of the party’s spellcaster and they don’t need a feat to do it), but I think it’s likely that most players will prefer the flexibility of getting exactly what they want instead of being locked into whatever abilities are prepackaged into the legacy item.
So you might want to consider granting a 10% or 25% discount to the XP and/or gold costs for performing the legacy rituals.
MORE COMPLEX SOLUTIONS: If you wanted to design a complex system from scratch, you might consider looking at using a system in which a character can take feats which bind them to a particular legacy item and unlock the legacy item’s abilities.
Another option (or perhaps building on the same option) would be to model certain items (intelligent or otherwise) like cohorts. The legacy items would gain XP just like cohorts and the powers of the legacy item would depend on its “level”.
WHAT ARE LEGACY ITEMS?
Let’s assume that we go with the Simple Solution I outlined above. What explanation(s) might there be for these particular mechanics:
(1) A legacy item has within it the nascent potential for a specific set of abilities.
(2) It requires both money and XP in order to unlock these abilities.
THE RITUAL OF CREATION: Legacy items are created using the standard Item Creation rules. The creator of the item must meet the prerequisites for all of the item’s potential properties, but they only pay the XP and gold piece costs associated with the basic properties of the item.
Why would someone create a legacy item? Well, it’s less taxing on the spellcaster who creates the item — they’re shifting some of the burden onto the one who will actually wield it. It also shifts the time required, which means that a single spellcaster could (for example) more easily supply magical weapons to an entire platoon of soliders. And, at the same time, the legacy rituals act as a kind of insurance policy against the items falling into enemy hands (since the enemy would need to expend their own resoruces to perform the legacy rituals anew).
One last thing to consider here: What should the market value of a crafted legacy item be? Remember that, unlike other items, legacy items can be a money sink that can never be cashed out. If the party wizard creates a +5 longsword by spending 25,000 gp and 2,000 XP that sword can be sold at a by-the-book price of 25,000 gp — recouping that gold directly back into the party’s coffers.
But if you pour the same 25,000 gp into a legacy ritual, then that money is simply gone. (22,500 gp if you use a 10% discount. 18,750 gp if you use a 25% discount.)
(On the flipside, this helps provide a motivation for the PC to keep the legacy item. Which is, after all, one of the primary reasons for having the mechanic in the first place.)
TRUE LEGACIES: The auras of magical items tend to “mix” with the auras of those who wield them. When a great hero or villain wields a weapon, for example, they leave behind indelible traces of their legacy.
Legacy rituals are designed to tap into these “greater auras” and unleash their power — but, like any mystical ritual, there are the associated costs in equipment, components, and the like.
This explanation for legacy items is more evocative, while still explaining the need for the costly rituals (that coincidentally maintain game balance).
You might consider using both explanations. Perhaps some items are possessed of true legacies, while other items are merely designed to be bound to their owners. Mechanically the two are similar, but in terms of the game world they’re quite different and distinct.
ARCHIVED HALOSCAN COMMENTS
J.T. Hurley
That one’s easy. Smile
Commoditization. The deliberate construction of something not to be special at all.
Just to spin an example with completely contrived numbers incompatible with existing game economy and rules:
A medium-level cleric (lvl5) walks into a shop to purchase a staff as a backup weapon. He picks up a staff and immediately feels himself become weaker, and notices a 4000gp price tag on it. In wonderment, he asks the shopkeeper why ask such a price for a weapon that makes you weaker (-1), to which the shopkeeper replies that if he were to use it as his sole weapon until he mastered it (lvl 15), by that time it would have grown to the point that it would be one of the strongest ever known (+5). He’ll even offer a trade-in on all your existing weapons, since you won’t be needing them.
Uncertain as to committing said time and resources to a weapon that would make him weaker from the moment he left the store, and take years to develop, the Cleric inquires as to what else might be available. After a moment or two reflection, the shopkeeper switches it out for another, handing him a slightly longer oaken staff, which on contact with his hand makes him feel much stronger (+2). “I’ll give it to you for the same price, but be warned, that one just is what it is,” he laughs, “she’s not even jealous.”
So, which is the better deal? Buy a constantly growing weapon that starts cursed and ends extremely valuable, knowing your stuck with it till you’ve fully developed it or given up and sold it for $2000 regardless of how far you’ve taken it? Or just buy a really good staff and walk out with a really good staff?
I’d actually take B, myself. I know people who would take A in a heartbeat. The point is that it’s a fair choice, with positives and negatives on both sides.
Friday, February 13, 2009, 9:04:57 PM
Justin Alexander
We also need to look at this from the other angle. If we (a) allow legacy items to be created and (b) make them effectively cheaper than the alternative, why would anyone ever make a non-legacy item?
Friday, February 13, 2009, 4:06:19 PM
J.T. Hurley
True, but if you make the +5 ritual cost as much as a +5 weapon, the only thing the legacy weapon does is provide an opportunity to re-use the same weapon. Possibly useful in narrative, but inconsequential in effect.
Economically, things are “worth” the price at which they change hands. If found “in the wild,” it just makes for a better drop. IMO, the idea behind a legacy weapon is to provide the player an opportunity to either use an inferior quality weapon now, or pay a premium to acquire a standard weapon, with the idea that at some point in the future that will pay off with profit. If all the +5 ritual does is turn a +4 sword into a +5 sword, the reasonable economic behavior would just be to sell the +4 and buy the +5.
Friday, February 13, 2009, 4:52:02 AM
Justin Alexander
Good thoughts, J.T.
The only problem, if we combine your line of thinking directly with the systems I posted, is that the legacy weapons end up being rather pricy.
For example, I’ve proposed that the legacy ritual to make the weapon +5 is equal to the cost of a +5 magic weapon. If the base legacy weapon costs as much as a +3 weapon, then this +5 legacy weapon is costing as much as a +3 weapon and a +5 weapon combined.
(Less so if you apply a discount to the legacy ritual, but you’ll still end up paying a premium.)
But what you could do is have the base legacy item be worth the average amount (as you suggest) and then discount the legacy rituals appropriately to make the prices work out.
This presents no meaningful savings if you buy a legacy item in a store (unless, again, you applied a slight discount to the legacy rituals) — but if you found a legacy item “out in the wild”, it makes the legacy rituals look very appealing.
Friday, February 13, 2009, 2:33:06 AM
J.T. Hurley
This is actually a solved problem in finance. Smile
Things are not valuable based only on what they are *now*, they’re valuable based on the sum total of all there values.
Let’s say, with greatly simplified numbers, that a given staff has a base level and four “unlockables,” each of which are evenly spaced, and range from +1 to +5.
The total bonuses add up to 15 points worth of bonuses over 5 levels.
In this greatly simplified universe, then, it works out to an average of +3 a level. Thus, a +1 to +5 staff is worth as much as a +3 staff.
Granted, this is oversimplified, since one +5 staff is worth more than 5 +1 staffs, but the idea is solid. But it could be a hook.
“Why does that staff cost four times as much as this one…”
Alternately:
You could back-load the weapon bonuses. Want to develop it all the way to +5? Get ready to put in two levels at 0, and two levels at +1 and two levels of +2 to get there. Hope it’s worth it when your teammates are buying +3s in shops and you’re still babysitting a +1. Smile
Thursday, February 12, 2009, 11:53:32 PM
Justin Alexander
I remember looking through the HBG when it was first released. I flipped through it in the game store, quickly realized that I wasn’t the market for that book, and put it back on the shelf.
Thursday, February 12, 2009, 2:02:51 AM
Sashas
The Hero Builder’s Guidebook is worse. (Trust me on this; don’t waste your money.)
Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 10:03:57 AM
One solution to the “major problem” with the “backstage solution”: give every party member an equally valuable legacy item. Either explicitly, or retroactively applied to an item they already like.