I like cleric domains. I think they’re a simple, direct way of differentiating clerics of different faiths from each other.
But here’s the thing: When you’re trying to strip the spell list back to its basics, domain spell lists seriously muck things up by significantly increasing the number of spells you need to include.
If you look at the Cleric and Arcanist spell lists on pages 99-101 of the Black Book Beta, you’ll see the ideal spell list I’d like to include. (This list has been heavily influenced by the earliest versions of the game; essentially stripping things back to an essential selection.) But if I include all the spells from the domain lists (on pages 101-104), those spells will be added to the Cleric and Arcanist spell lists. (And, in some cases, this will require even more spells to be added. For example, it doesn’t make much sense to include summon monster IX for the Chaos domain and not include the other summon monster spells.)
So here are some options I’m considering:
First, eliminate domains entirely. This simplifies character creation for clerics, but also prevents clerics from being easily customized to different gods.
Second, keep domains but eliminate domain spells. (In other words, clerics would get the domain powers from their selected domains, but there wouldn’t be any domain spell lists.)
Either option presents another question: Do I simply eliminate domain spell slots? Or do I simply fold those slots into the cleric’s daily spells? (In other words, do 4+1 spells per day become 4 spells per day or 5 spells per day?)
Or am I completely off-base here and should just go ahead and bloat the Grimoire up to accommodate the domains?
(Alternatively, if I just strip domains down to domain powers, I’d probably have room to include a wider range of domains.)
What fate awaits cleric domains?
- Keep domain powers (cut spell slot, so 4+1 spells per day becomes 4 spells per day) (34%, 43 Votes)
- Keep domain powers (keep spell slot, so 4+1 spells per day become 5 spells per day) (32%, 41 Votes)
- Leave domains intact (increase the spell lists) (15%, 19 Votes)
- Eliminate domains entirely (cut spell slot, so 4+1 spells per day become 4 spells per day) (7%, 9 Votes)
- Other (check the comments for my explanation) (7%, 9 Votes)
- Eliminate domains entirely (keep spell slot, so 4+1 spells per day become 5 spells per day) (5%, 6 Votes)
Total Voters: 116
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I’m currently of the opinion that each and every god should have his own specific spell list.
It seems only out of a desire of it being a crapton of work that it is not so. And yet if there were gods, it would be.
I with -C. Except I don’t think there actually needs to be THAT many spells. Probably 8-10 per level is enough, and then give every god/domain 4-5 out of the total 10 per level. That’s more than enough meaningful choice, going by your rule of 7 that you so convincingly presented before.
I agree with Hautamaki about the number of spells.
I’ve never really liked the Cleric, especially if it co-exists with a Paladin as I see them both as being different takes on the “Holy Warrior” archetype. There is no class that fits the divine magic equivalent of a Wizard (like a non-combat focused Priest or something). That’s just personal opinion, and rectifying it would require some unrealistically extreme change in the Cleric class. There are 2 directions to go; either the Cleric is less “armor and HP” focusing more on divine abilities, or it concentrates on the warrior aspect while dialing back powers. So, out of the list of options, the ones with less spells appealed to me. Having some sort of flavorful power based upon the god they are dedicated to would be nice though.
How about just one domain for a god (the domain of the god of healing, the domain of the goddess of war)? This would make the spell bloat become less big, and the choices easier for beginners, but still would make the concept known, so upgraders later on already know the domain principle. And there’s still a (more or less significant) difference between worshippers of the single deities. Aligment domains and/or pantheon domains would work, too.
I feel like a moderate approach is appropriate. I like domains as a way of differentiating clerics, but leaving them intact adds way too many spells. Some of the domains should just be ruthlessly cut. Luck, for example, which would require the addition of all 9 spells on the list. Others should be preserved. For example, Healing would only require the addition of one spell (the incredibly iconic Heal, which I feel should have been included in the first place given the existence of Mass Heal). Finally, you maintain full compatibility if you create new domains. For example, the Knowledge domain could be replaced by the Oracle domain – give it the same granted ability and just choose a pre-existing divination spell from each level.
I think that between choosing particularly attractive and iconic spells to add and reorganizing the spell lists a reasonable number of domains can be presented without bloating the spell list too much. Were I undertaking the task, I would probably aim for a total of ten to twelve domains, including the four alignment domains. That way you could force the cleric to take one alignment domain matching their deity and one other domain, to limit the number of decision points in character creation. Off the top of my head, Healing, Battle, Oracle, Deception, Creation, Demise, Passage, and Security plus the alignments would give each of the 14 major Olympians a unique portfolio, at least.
Incidentally, for the alignment domains, most of the selection work is done with 1) Protection from X, 3) Circle Against X, 5) Dispel X, 7) X Word and 9) Gate (X Alignment Only). The second and fourth level cleric spell lists could use one or two other spells anyway.
I kind of agree with -C too, but that goes against the systematic streamlining you seem to be going for. I do like domains as a way of differentiating clerics; here are a couple possible compromises.
1. Keep spell descriptors and just allow a cleric with a given domain to choose any spell with descriptor A (or B, if that’s not enough) from the list as their (unchangeable) domain spell, for that domain, for that level.
2. Cut down on the spell list length with spells of scaleable level, something like Monte Cook’s, what was it, minor and major arcana versions of a spell? But more so. Certain spells can have their level chosen when you cast them, with perhaps a minimum and/or maximum effective level (minimum also coming into play when deciding whether one can learn it). Or you can simply have spells that operate at two levels, where the higher one is the “mass” version, etc.
For example, have Summon Monster as a level-less spell that can be learned first at 1st level, and then when cast as a level X spell, it summons 1 CR-Y creature or proportionately more creatures of lower level. Cure Wounds is easy to scale similarly, and so on. Nu?
I always rather liked the idea of domains giving you access to spells that other priests don’t get to use. While some of the spells priests all get are things that all priests need (Remove Curse for example), I think that on the whole clerics are too much the same (why do all/good clerics get Animate Dead?).
So I’m in favor of domain spells, but I’d go about it in a different way: make all domain spells stuff that isn’t in the normal priest list, but don’t make any new spells; take them all from the [wizard] list for example.
Since pretty much everyone else has voiced their like for domains, I feel somewhat compelled to say my piece. I hate them, and see no reason to differentiate between clerics. After all, there is no differentiation within any other classes in L&L. I don’t see why clerics should get special treatment. Unless you also plan on incorporating school specs, bloodlines, rage powers, etc., I don’t see the point in hanging on to domains.
I voted for the winning option (keep powers and keep spell slot) but I would actually like to change my vote to the losing option (ditch domains entirely but keep slot) for this reason.
Lee brings up the point that you don’t have to create any new spells: just include variations on old ones.
For instance, “Gate: Calling only; Fire typed creatures only” for the Fire domain, metamagicked versions of existing spells, enhanced spells (e.g. Stone to Mud: Effective against worked stone.”), access to wizard spells (i.e. the Water domain is the only way a cleric can cast Grease), and refluffed spells (e.g. “Slime Storm: As Sleet Storm, but rains pale slime instead of sleet.”).
I like the option I’ve seen on one OSR site where each deity’s priests lose one standard cleric spell and have it replaced with something more appropriate to their religion.
What Tom H. said. If I had my druthers, Clerics wouldn’t even prepare spells; they would just prepare domains out of their deity’s portfolio.
I’ve always thought that domain powers are unnecessary; the real meat of it is the domain spells.
What about having clerics work like sorcerers? An overall list of divine spells, any given cleric more-or-less permanently memorizes a subset of that list, typically emphasizing the spells their deity or pantheon traditionally favors. Some spells are extremely rare outside a specific tradition, and as such don’t need to be listed as available divine spells in the core book.
I’ll have to second the call: keep the Domain spell list, just give them access to non-Cleric spells. I never liked all the Domain-unique spells very much because they were too exclusive, while it feels very appropriate that a Cleric worshipping the god of Travel might get Teleport and Death clerics get wail of the banshee. No new spells are added, but already existing ones see more use, which is the essence of efficiency.
5 spells is more powerful than 4 + 1, so “keep powers 4 + 1 -> 5” would make clerics more powerful, which isn’t in my opinion a good idea. Either keep (possibly buffed) powers but lose the slot (as I voted) or remove domains and add a slot.
make different class for different gods (like druid/cleric in 1st edition) the cleric work for the pantheon of gods or the king of gods
Cleric domains look like a good idea but they are a really bad mechanic. They expand poorly with expansions in the spell lists. They provide incredible temptation to include arcane spells which blurs the classes in an undesirable way. They introduce a number of abuseable mechanics into the cleric class and they increase complexity.
Cleric spells being classed into domains (ala 2nd edition) was a better decision and a new class per pantheon is also a good decision if you don’t mind the list of classes.
I might suggest a spell trapping idea like used in savage worlds (peginc.com)
alternatively, you could go the keep domains, no spell lists option with 4 spells, then add an inherent power or a spell that each cleric gets that is related to their deity/domain. Making it so no other cleric or opposed domain/deity could have it might flavor the differences between clerics.
Another idea is to limit certain domains/deities from certain spells, eg good or law clerics could not have cause light wounds” or “harm” spellls. Thus a short list under each domain/ clerics of xxx deity can never have the following spells – or if entreated for with a dam good reason might require much pennance.